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#237101 - 09/10/2004 17:55 "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?"
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
According to factcheck.org the President does indeed own part of a timber company. Oops.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#237102 - 09/10/2004 20:15 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: genixia]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Yeah, it's been all over the newspapers for... oh... the last *week*. Of course, that wouldn't help him any, since he doesn't read. Apparantly no-one on his staff reads, either. Or maybe he just ignored their memo, like he ignored the terrorism memos.

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#237103 - 10/10/2004 03:47 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: genixia]
music
addict

Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
Here's the most stunning fact from factcheck.org.
It is perfectly legal to lie all you want in political ads.

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#237104 - 10/10/2004 03:54 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: genixia]
music
addict

Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
Quote:
According to factcheck.org the President does indeed own part of a timber company. Oops.


Quote:
Of course, that wouldn't help him any, since he doesn't read.



factcheck.org sure is handy.
In fact, here are some more facts I learned from there.

The $84 dollars which Kerry mentioned Bush made from timber were actually from his interest in an oil and gas concern. The concern in question branched out into timber the next year.

So they're both wrong:
  • Bush did NOT make $84 from timber. (Kerry's error.)
  • Bush does indirectly have a stake in a timber company. (Bush's error.)


Just to play devil's advocate here, I don't think it is a particular mark of idiocy for him not to know this. And here is why. I definitely don't consider myself one of those people who have so much money sitting around that I don't what to do with it (or what I'm currently doing with it). Yet several years ago, I was shocked and saddened to learn that I inadvertently owned some MSFT stock -- something which goes COMPLETELY against my principles. How did this tragedy occur? Simple. I have some of my paycheck diverted into a 401(k) (For those across the pond - this is an American retirement plan which allows you to avoid paying taxes on some of your retirement savings until you actually retire. In the meantime it compounds tax free. Almost everyone here who works for a company with more than 50 employees has access to one. And since they have been hyping them for 20+ years, almost anyone with any sense chunks a few bucks in from time to time.) Anyway, part of the limitation with these is that you usually have only a very limited choice of investments. Unfortunately, most of the funds have at least a percentage point or two allocated to propping up Bill and Steve's little company in Seattle. And some tech funds might have 20% or more!

Ergo, I own a little bit of Microsoft. I sure as hell don't like it. But if I want to invest in any technology funds whatsoever, that's the breaks.

And in general, if you own a couple of mutual funds you probably don't know where your money really is until you get the quarterly reports. Then you can find out where you money WAS... last quarter; of course some of it has now moved on into other investments you'll find out about next quarter.

Anyway, these are only the problems of a poor working slob. Namely, me.
Just think how hard it would be to keep track if I were, say, a multi-millionaire politician who had someone else managing a lot of my money so I could focus on other things.
(Or someone like Alan Greenspan -- who turns over control of most of his fortune to someone else so that there will be no conflict of interest when he makes rate-change decisions!)

Here's another interesting fact from factcheck.org.
Cheney actually went to great lengths to divest himself of all Halliburton money before he took office. Even to the point of paying nearly $15,000 for an insurance policy to cover his deferred compensation from 1999 should the company go bankrupt.

I.e., just so he couldn't be said to have some kind of interest even in keeping the company solvent! Let alone in keeping it profitable. Oddly, he never mentions this to the press.

Furthermore, ALL of Cheney's future Halliburton stock option profits go to charity. 40% to U of Wyoming, 40% to George Washington Med School, 20% to a charity for low-income students. (Irrevocably. In perpetuity. Follow the link.) Strangely, he never mentions this to the press though he is regularly slammed for his Halliburton connection.

However, I think I know why. As you'll see if you follow the factcheck link, the process of separating himself is complicated and eminently unsuited for soundbites. He is probably trying to avoid the Kerry mistake of "talking too much." Of course, he is also a taciturn Wyomingan (Wyomingite?) and probably thinks that it's unbecoming to ever discuss one's money in public in almost any context.

(Random stream of consciousness: has anyone else been surprised that in both debates Kerry has made a point to mention that he, Bush, and the news anchor are all super-wealthy? Hmmm, perhaps he's trying to shoot down Bush's "just a normal guy" image and defuse any potential criticism of his own "silver spoon" lifestyle. But it just doesn't seem like an effective tactic. It comes across more like gloating. I mean, let's face it, it's pretty hard for any politician to play the "class hatred" card without looking a bit hypocritical. There aren't any poor senators. And only a handful of "wealth disadvantaged" representatives. I'm sure someone will post the link to the page of the net worth of all US congresspeople. My google fu is bad tonight. All I could find was this socialist link which might be questionable. If true, the Democrats are significantly richer than the Republicans....)

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#237105 - 10/10/2004 07:07 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: music]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Just to play devil's advocate here, I don't think it is a particular mark of idiocy for him not to know this.

It still would have been a good idea not to mock his opponent if he isn't sure. At the very least it is a mark of smugness.
_________________________
Matt

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#237106 - 10/10/2004 17:00 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: Dignan]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Quote:
Quote:
Just to play devil's advocate here, I don't think it is a particular mark of idiocy for him not to know this.

It still would have been a good idea not to mock his opponent if he isn't sure. At the very least it is a mark of smugness.


I think that's very idiotic when someone like Kerry comes out with a very specific number like $84. If he'd said $100, or any other round number then maybe he's pulling a number out of thin air, or speculating. But anyone with half a brain just knows that $84 has come from a financial statement somewhere.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

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#237107 - 10/10/2004 20:33 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: music]
FireFox31
pooh-bah

Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
But can we really trust factcheck.org? Can we really trust any information we receive about politics? The burden of voting is actually a tough one.
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FireFox31
110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set

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#237108 - 11/10/2004 01:44 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: music]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
So they're both wrong:
Bush did NOT make $84 from timber. (Kerry's error.)


Really? Sure looks like factcheck's error. They did correct it later.

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#237109 - 11/10/2004 01:46 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: FireFox31]
Daria
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
Quote:
But can we really trust factcheck.org? Can we really trust any information we receive about politics? The burden of voting is actually a tough one.


You get to pick what to believe. You're right, it's hard. I still haven't decided on Specter or Hoeffel.

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#237110 - 11/10/2004 02:15 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: genixia]
time
enthusiast

Registered: 20/11/2000
Posts: 279
Loc: Pacific Northwest
To say someone "owns" a timber company vs. "having a share in one" are two very different things.

Given the complexity of most 401K packages or mutual funds I'm certain I'm involved in a lot of companies I'd want nothing to do with...

I 'spose now I can say, "I own Intel" <...wanders off to fire Barrett's butt...>

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#237111 - 11/10/2004 04:29 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: Daria]
music
addict

Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
Quote:
dbrashear: Really? Sure looks like factcheck's error. They did correct it later.

Indeed. So, it looks like Kerry and factcheck both made the same error. Easy enough to do. Unless, of course, Kerry's debate-trainer pulled that number right off factcheck without cross-checking it himself before drilling Kerry on it....

Quote:
FireFox31: But can we really trust factcheck.org?

Apparently not.
Seriously, though, they appear not to have a specific political axe to grind, and are apparently somewhat self-correcting. However, as Kerry's debate-trainer may have found out, relying on a single source is always dangerous. (Note: the Pentagon should perhaps take heed of this as well....)

Quote:
FireFox31: Can we really trust any information we receive about politics? The burden of voting is actually a tough one.

Yes it certainly is. And no citizen is really fully up to the task. But we all do the best we can.

Some of us dig around for multiple sources, weigh countering opinions, and decide the most appropriate tradeoff on our personal views on taxes, privacy, pre-emptive war, defense, gay marriage, abortion, character, big/small government, environment, flag-burning, stem cells, space funding, supreme court appointees, national debt, etc. etc. etc. Others of us run to the polls and fire off a vote based solely on emotion, hatred, or a single hot-button issue. But that's just the way it is.
Some people get all their news from right-wing talk radio, others entirely from whatever's posted on their back-to-nature commune's mess hall bulletin board. And many more probably get no real news at all, other than what Britney and J-Lo are up to this week.

Hmmmm, I wonder what percentage of the vote is actually "informed vote." Probably quite impossible to tell. We all think we're "informed."

This leads to my mixed feelings about "get out the vote" and voter registration efforts.
I'm certainly all for efforts in high school civics classes to pound into people the importance of voting. But if you're in already in your 20's or older and are just too lazy to grab a registration card one of the 10,000 times you're at the post office or DMV, I'm not sure I trust you to spend the much larger amount of time required to come to a good decision. Just stay at home, eat Cheetos, and watch Jerry Springer on election day. I don't want your poorly considered vote gumming up the works anyway. (Unless, of course, you agree to vote exactly as I say. Then just sign right here on this clipboard. ).

Quote:
time: Given the complexity of most 401K packages or mutual funds I'm certain I'm involved in a lot of companies I'd want nothing to do with...

Well, it's easy enough to invest in various "socially responsible" funds that avoid RJR-Nabisco and Big Tobacco, (but they probably also avoid a bunch of stuff you might not have any problem with or are even in favor of).
Unfortunately, it is much more difficult to find funds that avoid, say, certain tech companies with multi-decade patterns of unethical behavior.

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#237112 - 11/10/2004 05:37 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: music]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
But if you're in already in your 20's or older and are just too lazy to grab a registration card one of the 10,000 times you're at the post office or DMV, I'm not sure I trust you to spend the much larger amount of time required to come to a good decision.

Hey, I resemble that remark I suppose I took the apathetic youth thing a few years too far having never actually voted (I'm 28). Now I've reached the cranky and annoyed stage where I intend to vote specifically to vote against things that annoy me (George W). Maybe next election I'll be in favor of something, but this year I intend to vote primarily against stupidity.
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EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

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#237113 - 11/10/2004 06:44 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: music]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
This leads to my mixed feelings about "get out the vote" and voter registration efforts. I'm certainly all for efforts in high school civics classes to pound into people the importance of voting. But if you're in already in your 20's or older and are just too lazy to grab a registration card...

I used to vote.

For about 40 years, I never missed a chance to go to the polls and express my disapproval of the way things were being done. I doubt if I have voted for an incumbent more than half a dozen times. Ever.

But four years ago I was disenfranchised. No, I was not convicted of a felony, I didn't lose my voter registration card.

Instead, Alaska went to a closed primary system, where voters must choose to vote a Republican ticket or a Democratic ticket in the primary elections.

Alaska is a small (ppulation-wise) state. Working at a radio station, I have the chance to become personally acquainted with many of the people who run for office, and some of them I count as friends. Yet I am no longer allowed to vote against the people I choose. I have to choose all Democrats or Republicans. I don't vote against Parties. I vote against people. Or at least I used to.

My vote is a valuable thing -- and if the parties (or, in this case, Parties) involved have decided to treat me so shabbily, then they don't deserve to have it.

Fuck 'em!

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#237114 - 11/10/2004 11:19 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: tanstaafl.]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
So don't vote in the primaries. They're for the people enamored of particular parties anyway. (Honestly, I wasn't aware of any state that allowed people to vote on both parties' primaries. It doesn't really make sense.) Vote in the general election.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#237115 - 11/10/2004 12:34 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: wfaulk]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
Besides, this year you have to opportunity to vote to legalize marijuana (or so I'm told).
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~ John

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#237116 - 11/10/2004 14:11 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: JBjorgen]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Okay, I'm not sure what to make of that post. On the surface, it'd seem like you're promoting marijuana legalization, but that doesn't seem to jibe with your apparently conservative moral stance. Or are you implying that Doug and I are potheads? Or that we'd be particularly interested in legalizing pot?

I'm just confused.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#237117 - 11/10/2004 17:53 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: wfaulk]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3582
Loc: Columbus, OH
Quote:
On the surface, it'd seem like you're promoting marijuana legalization, but that doesn't seem to jibe with your apparently conservative moral stance.


I suppose given the opportunity I'd vote against legalizing it. I guess I don't have a problem with it for medical use, although I assume it's a rare case where it's the only/best alternative. If it were an issue here and I could be provided with a strong medical argument that it is the only/best alternative in some cases, I might vote to legalize it for medical use.

Quote:
Or are you implying that Doug and I are potheads?


Nothing of the sort. Actually, I should have noted that the reply was meant only for Doug, who actually lives in Alaska where it's an issue.

Quote:
Or that we'd be particularly interested in legalizing pot?


Not particularly, but Doug seems to be somewhat libertarian (small l intended), so I figured he'd have a strong opinion one way or the other. I suppose I was more interested to get his thoughts on the issue than anything else.
_________________________
~ John

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#237118 - 11/10/2004 23:33 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: JBjorgen]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
I suppose I was more interested to get his thoughts on the issue than anything else.

I am strongly in favor of legalizing marijuana, but probably not for the reasons you might think.

I have never, ever, not even once in my whole life, used an illegal pharmaceutical, nor have I ever been interested in doing so. Unmodified reality is interesting enough on its own -- I don't need to enhance (or, I guess depending on the drug, diminish) it.

But -- I also have no interest in preventing someone else from doing so.

Oh, if it were a relative or acquaintance and I thought he was ruining his life, I might try and talk him out of it. But I would never countenance passing a law to protect him from himself, "...for his own good." I sincerely hope that if I should ever show signs of that kind of monstrous arrogance, someone will whop me a good one alongside the head, "...for my own good!"

So if I don't care one way or another about whether someone wants to indulge in illegal drug usage, why am I adamantly in favor of legalization of marijuana?

Well, let's re-phrase that a bit. I am in favor of decriminalization of marijuana, that is, let's get rid of the ridiculous laws that have ruined far more lives (orders of magnitude more lives!) than the use of the drug itself has ever done. Imagine how much better use we could make of the billions of dollars spent every year in fruitless attempts to enforce an unenforceable law whose violators harm nobody.

I am mindful of the time some years back that a fellow bought a used pickup truck here in Alaska, to drive to his new job in the lower 48. Apparently the Customs folks at the Canadian border didn't like his looks or something... they pretty much dismantled the truck, and lo and behold, mixed in amongst the ashes in the ashtray were two miniscule seeds (apparently left there by the previous owner) that Customs decreed to be marijuana seeds. Being fair-minded, they did not throw the man in jail. Instead, they confiscated his truck (to be later sold at public auction, the funds going to the Canadian government) and left the man to his own devices to walk 300 miles back home again. Oh, boy, it's a damn good thing that marijuana is illegal, otherwise criminals like that would be out walking our streets. Oh, wait...

Every time I hear somebody say that he thinks marijuana should be illegal, I think of the statement by HL Mencken, who said: "A puritan is someone who wakes up in a cold sweat at two o'clock in the morning, desperately afraid that somehow, somewhere, someone is having a good time."

So, yes, I am in favor of legalizing marijuana, and now perhaps you have some glimmerings of the reasons why.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#237119 - 12/10/2004 04:01 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: wfaulk]
music
addict

Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
Quote:
So don't vote in the primaries. [...] Vote in the general election.


I have an interesting/disturbing story here.

I live in a state with an open primary.
When I went to the polling place this year, they asked me if I wanted a Democrat, Republican, or Independent ballot. According to my voter manual, it doesn't matter what party you declare yourself, you can request any of the ballots with only one restriction.

That restriction was: you may not vote for state party chairman and things of that nature. Seems reasonable enough if you're not a member of that party, no?

But here's the hitch. We have gone to eVoting.
And my ballot allowed me to vote for ALL the positions, including the ones I was supposed to be blocked from voting. So I did the ethical thing and made no selection in those races and then mentioned this oversight to the poll worker so that he could report it. His response was "well you've already voted it, nothing we can do about it, give me your 'ballot'" (The 'ballot' is just a little credit card thing.)

I expected at least that he would offer to invalidate the ballot and offer me a properly configured one. No dice.

Of course, he might have been feeling lazy, since I had already returned once to get a partisan ballot after discovering that the "independent" ballot didn't really let me vote for _anything_.

I guess in the scope of things this was pretty minor, considering all the really terrible things which are bound to happen eventually with no-paper-trail eVoting.

Still makes me mad that we are pushing ahead with this electronic voting thing over the strenuous protests of those who have voiced many legitimate concerns which have yet to be addressed.

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#237120 - 12/10/2004 04:20 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: wfaulk]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
(Honestly, I wasn't aware of any state that allowed people to vote on both parties' primaries. It doesn't really make sense.)

California does, although there are two state proposals on the current ballot to modify that in some way. Seems there have been a few complaints of Republicans voting in large numbers for the most un-electable Democrat (or the most palatable to Republicans), and vice-versa, so neither party really has the candidate they *really* want in the running.

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#237121 - 12/10/2004 12:14 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: canuckInOR]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
And when a Republican votes in the Democratic primary, he can also vote in the Republican primary, too?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#237122 - 13/10/2004 01:37 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: wfaulk]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
And when a Republican votes in the Democratic primary, he can also vote in the Republican primary, too?

No.

In an open primary, all the names are on the ballot. You can choose one name for each office, regardless of what political party the candidate espouses.

This means you get to choose whom you consider to be the best applicant for the job, period, regardless of party affiliation.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#237123 - 13/10/2004 01:40 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: tanstaafl.]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Hmm. Interesting.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#237124 - 13/10/2004 03:17 Re: "I own a timber company. That's news to me. Need some wood?" [Re: canuckInOR]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Quote:
(Honestly, I wasn't aware of any state that allowed people to vote on both parties' primaries. It doesn't really make sense.)

California does,[...]

Ah, whoops. Slightly incorrect information posted there, according to this.

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